Chloe Popescu 

Welcome back to The C Space storyteller stage for our fourth panel of the day and one we're particularly excited about the streaming and SVOD landscape is hotter and more competitive than ever, but there are some very big players about to burst onto the scene. Here to talk about Warner Media's direct to consumer plans are Jeremy Legg, Chief Technology Officer and Warner of Warner media and Andy Forssell, EVP and GM of Warner Media direct to consumer. They will be moderated by the always fantastic Sarah Fisher from Axios. Please join me and welcome welcoming our panelists on stage.

 
Sara Fischer 

Good afternoon, and thank you so much for joining us at today's world media storytellers see space. I'm here with two very esteemed entertainment and technology executives. With me today we have Jeremy Legg the Chief Technology Officer of Warner Media, and joined by him is Andy Forssell, the Executive Vice President and General Manager of Warner Media's direct to consumer unit. Thank you both so much for joining.

 
Jeremy Legg 

Thank you. Thanks, Sara.

 
Sara Fischer 

Before we get started, I just wanted to remind you all to please join the conversation by tweeting at hashtag CES 2020. And if we have time, at the end of the conversation, we will be taking a few audience questions. I wanted to sort of start off here and just think a little bit about the news of the day. Last week, Apple announced a five year partnership with Richard Plepler, the former CEO of HBO. And there's been this sort of narrative that has come along with his departure, that HBO now that it's owned by Time Warner's parent company, AT&T, a telecom company is going to be more focused on scale, as opposed to quality, Andy because you're the GM of the direct to consumer unit overseeing some of these streaming initiatives. Tell me why that isn't true.

 
Andy Forssell 

Well, I work a lot with HBO team and I see the HBO team at HBO Max team because that HBO team is still focused on doing exactly what they've done for literally decades. Casey Bloys leads the programming efforts. They're two phenomenally talented team. There, they've got significantly more budget than they had a couple years ago. And they're making that work. And Casey's, I think, very conscious of there are budget levels that we shouldn't ask him to scale beyond and we certainly honor that. But that teams firing on all cylinders, just won four Golden Globes. They're doing phenomenally well. And so I feel really good about that we all feel lucky to have that is a foundational element of what we're building with HBO Max, because the team's amazing and so feel great about that, that that team is, is just fantastic. And then we have sort of the max piece of it, which is an enormous and massive investment in itself. To cover some audiences and some content segments that are outside what HBO is traditionally done to broaden it, make it interesting more people in households and that effort another phenomenal team there I won't go into details about them but but tremendously talented and great track record. And so we're excited about all that and I again, Golden Globes sort of played it out fantastic outputs. I think the deal was Richard and Apple is it was smart of them. He's phenomenal. We have a great relationship many people great relationships with him he deserves a lot of credit for, for what HBO has become. And I think that makes a lot of sense. But I think it's all good for viewers, a lot of contents going to get made, it's getting made now is going to get made over the next five years. And as as viewers and fans, we're going to have a lot of great things to watch. So that's good.

 
Sara Fischer 

And just to follow up on that the four Golden Globes, I remember after Game of Thrones, everyone was throwing up their hands and saying, Is there another big hit? Is HBO gonna be able to produce another Game of Thrones and clearly you have you have Succession. You have Chernobyl. What does it take to be able to constantly put out hits like that are you going to need to increase investment to continue to do that?

 
Andy Forssell 

Well, I think it starts with the creative vision of that team and the talent relationships they have across the creative community. That's critical. And those relationships run really deep. And and as I said, I don't want to keep singing too many praises there, but you can't overdo it. The team is phenomenally talented. Look, Game of Thrones was one of those shows that comes along every once in a while. Most people don't have a Game of Thrones. They did a phenomenal job, the the cast and crew and the development team that surrounded that, but you don't expect to follow it up with another one. But as you said, they've come back with some really strong titles. And look, I think, in the big picture here, we have to be great at content as you think about launching HBO Max, we obviously hit the ground running there with with HBO team, the max efforts Warner Brothers behind us. And I look as a person who's been largely come at this from the techie side and the business side. I'd love to you know, it would be great if you could make up for content not being great, but You can't that's a critical part of what we do. Everything else we do is a multiplier of great shows that matter to you and to audiences out there. So we start really well positioned. We feel great about that. And and, and I think you bring up a good point, though you don't ask those teams to scale. We don't want to sacrifice quality for quantity. And we've done that through expanding sort of laterally with more people with different viewpoints, looking at different audiences.

 
Sara Fischer 

Jeremy, you see this from a different angle, you're managing a lot of the technology behind the streaming service. We saw in Disney Plus launched on November 12. Last year that there were some glitches, some users were not necessarily able to get into their accounts. How can you be so sure that HBO Max is going to launch with no glitches? Can you promise that?

 
Jeremy Legg 

I haven't been asked that question. I would say across the industry that you know, the CTOs that run the services, we all sort of do a collective group hug at the in the beginning of each year and, and and hope that we don't have any glitches and and, you know, technology is finnicky. And and the issues that the Disney had appear to be around scale and that you obviously tried to fix those quickly as it relates to HBO Max. I mean, I think there's a couple of things that are worth noting. The first is, is that while HBO Max is a new brand, HBO isn't a new product. And so we've been at the streaming game for quite some time, we had, I think it was 4.6 4.7 million concurrent users during Game of Thrones, arriving in a very short window of time. And so we have to build for that scale. And then we're gonna have to build for great hopefully greater scale as it relates to people coming on to HBO Max, I generally think of these streaming services and sort of the points of failure within them as a series of choke points for consumer and so there's the initial sign up, you know, for example, in the payment processing, there's the authentication and entitlement services. There's the actual video and loads of concurrent video streams that go on inside of the service. And there were several others But those are three, you know, sort of obvious ones. Do you have to build and scale and test all those things well in advance, and you have to try and break the product before it launches. And that's what we're in the midst of doing right now. And you know, we have a nice base to work from. And fortunately, we've got a few months more to, to work out all the kinks. So can I promise you, there will be no issues? No, I can't promise you there will be no issues. But we're certainly do everything we can to mitigate any of the things that we see coming down the pike

 
Sara Fischer 

In terms of experimenting to get out the kinks before launch. Going back to Disney, they had launched in other countries, they did some tests, they also launched ESPN plus so they were able to sort of test their technology beforehand, are you running experiments like that?

 
Jeremy Legg 

Not in the same way. So we're not launching in another country, for example, but we're already building off of the technology base of HBO NOW and expanding off that. So in a sense, we already have a lot of the technology live and in market today. And because that's the platform that we're putting HBO Max on top of as well. Release two things that are going to be new components that we're building, you know, we're going to do all the normal kinds of system testing and user acceptance testing and beta testing. But we may not approach it in exactly the same way Disney did.

 
Sara Fischer 

Andy this is a very competitive landscape, especially in this subscription, streaming surface realm. You have Disney, Netflix, Amazon, are you worried about churn about users just signing up to watch that Chernobyl or watch that Succession? And then ditching the streaming service after a month?

 
Andy Forssell 

Look, I think that the really fascinating puzzle we're going to see come together over the next 5, 6, 7, 8 years is what as consumers what collection of services do we end up assembling as, as one of our big sources of entertainment? And that's going to play out literally over those years. We won't have an answer that in a year, we'll know more. It's funny because we think about it. We're not going head to head with Disney or Netflix. We're not trying to convince somebody to to leave those services. I mean, we are competing for viewing hours and for discretionary income. And we're competing on the talent side. So I wouldn't say it's not competitive, but it is oddly not directly competitive. And, and so the mystery is, what are those patterns? And to come to your question, I think part of that pattern is we'll see people with one or two services that they consider a base service that they're subscribed to all the time. And they may have an is that one or two or four, that that's part of the, you know, that we're all gonna have to learn how that plays out. And what those numbers end up being, they're also going to have other services they dip in and out to base based on content. So it's not bad or good. It's what's the mix, and that's what we'll learn over the next you know, half decade or more,

 
Jeremy Legg 

I think so too is is we want to be a complement to the other services that exist out there. So as you know, as you think about Disney service, which clearly has had a successful launch, you know, it has a lot of kids content, it has a lot of family content, I think our offering will have some of that, but also be much broader than some of the things that are in that service. And so I don't think consumers necessarily (inaudible) this or that. One service can be a compliment for the other.

 
Sara Fischer 

When it comes to retaining users, there have been a heightened expectations around what a streaming experience is like. They want to be able to download content and watch it on their iPad, when they go on the plane. They want to be able to have multiple concurrent streams. Earlier this year, I talked to one of your colleagues, Natasha Hritzuk, and she said, kind of alluded to the fact that this streaming service might be thinking about some of those features. Jeremy, can you talk to us about whether or not you're going to have things like downloadable content, multiple concurrent streams? How many people can sign in with the password on HBO Max?

 
Jeremy Legg 

Yeah, so we are going to have downloads, you know, you're going to be able to have multiple concurrent streams and I think we're at five profiles give me honest as it relates to the service itself, and I think those are You know, candidly, relatively table stakes things as it relates to the broader industry. I mean, you know, a service that can only have one stream or one profile, I don't think is going to compete that effectively. So while the tech behind it may actually be relatively complicated, I think that those are largely table stakes features as it relates to what consumers are going to expect from the services.

 
Sara Fischer 

One thing you've said is you want to make sure that this is different in that it's more social, potentially than some other streaming services. So maybe you can communicate with some of your friends. Walk us through the social features on HBO max that are going to be different from the experience on Netflix or on Disney or another service.

 
Jeremy Legg 

Sure. I mean, Andy, and I can probably ham and egg this a bit but you know, we've come up with one of these concepts of, you know, multiple profiles and sharing profiles. So that, you know, if you have two people that are viewing but they have different kinds of likes, you can keep your own profile, but you can also have a joint profile. And that's something that hasn't really existed in the SVOD space. And, you know, it's something that you know, we talked About during investor day back in November, which I think you did, actually. So you can, you know, put

 
Andy Forssell 

Marco go to 50,000 feet for a minute, you think about what we've had a decade of general entertainment services, including user experience, as well as content development. I think what has been amazing for all of us as users is that those UIs have gotten better and better and better, and they're smoother, and they make it easier to, to find something and watch something, they scale well. And we should all be thankful for that. The next frontier where I think most existing services have fallen down, is we haven't gotten better at helping us any of us find something new. I mean, that's still an advertising bait. We all spend literally hundreds of millions of dollars in advertising, both traditional and digital, to try and convince all of us collectively to try something new. I think the user interfaces of these products have not focused on that we want to take some chances there. Some of the things will work, some won't. But if you can even get 10% better at that. It's valuable to all of us as users and phenomenally valuable. from a business standpoint

 
Sara Fischer 

what do those chances look like?

 
Andy Forssell 

Yeah, so the one we talked about our investor day was simple in concept, but recommended by humans. And it was sort of a robe, social icons across the top. And the idea was, it starts with some of our famous talent just talking about something they love, and it can't be something they're in. But what is a show or movie they love and why? And keep it short and succinct, but they're passionate that most of these folks are passionate entertainment lovers. You can think about where that goes, that starts to establish a follow graph and and should they all be famous people? Should it be users? We'll experiment with where that goes. But I think the idea of the word of mouth is always been the most powerful marketing. How do we try and build some of that into the app in a way? Because the social networks serve some of that purpose, but not perfectly.

 
Jeremy Legg 

I think, you know, the things that exist in the service is, you know, most of the SVOD services you see out there are sort of endless sets of tiles, whether you're going you know, up and down or left to right and so we're breaking some of that up with some of the highlight features and other pieces. Not, you know, trying not to just drive consumers through an endless, you know, set of tiles and mix a bit of curation along with the recommendation.

 
Sara Fischer 

When some of these streaming services launched, they have different types of brands that are highlighted. So if I go on ESPN Plus, I can get all my Pixar content in one place. And it's so easy if I want to watch Star Wars, I just go to the Star Wars section. Is HBO Max going to be doing something like that? Can I get all of my comedy in one spot? Am I going to be able to get all my HBO dramas in another place? Or is it going to kind of all be mixed match together based off of what kind of content it is? I think

 
Jeremy Legg 

you'll see several different ways for consumers to find the content. So we will have brand hubs so that you know if you're interested in DC Comics you're interested in, in CNN or you're interested in HBO, that you can go and find all that content in one place. You're going to have curated components of the service, you know, whether it be you know, classic movies or other types of things that are that are more curated. And then you're also going to have, you know, elements within the service where they're a bit differentiated. So, you know, keyframe scenes from a holiday theme across all episodes of friends, for example, or other things like that. So they'll, you know, we'll experiment our way into this, it will obviously have, you know, search capabilities, you know, genre capabilities to identify and find content. So, you know, depending on how consumers want to try and find it, there's still be multiple paths, and for them to do it.

 
Sara Fischer 

We talked about the app. I think a lot of people assume mobile. But some of your competitors say that the majority of viewing actually happens on a big living room screen, both Netflix and Hulu says 80% of their content consumption happens in the living room. Are you building your app and product to be mostly living room consumption, or you expecting there to be a lot more consumption on things like iPads and phones? Andy, I'll bring that to you.

 
Andy Forssell 

Yeah, so I, I think that most of the services, I think back to who was there, the first six or seven years were about 60 to 70% Viewing the living room once we got mature, I think that are, as you mentioned, even a little higher is not a typical. You have to work phenomenally and smoothly and fluidly and fluidly in that environment, you've got to have great. You can have great resolution, and it's got to just work and will absolutely do that. I think there is an opportunity on mobile though. I think SVOD is probably under general entertainment SVOD writ large is underinvested in mobile in that. And we've had some really fun conversations internally. You think about something like Friends. Jeremy already mentioned, there's some really cool collections, we have to think about what's an on ramp to Friends. It's probably not starting with season one. And in watching the whole thing, although some people will do that. There are a lot of great on ramps, but just think about short form for those of us that sort of watched Friends when when it was on broadcast TV. They're phenomenal collections of short form and that's a great if you got five minutes to burn. I think we need to be aggressive enough to make that a real choice versus checking your Twitter feed or whatever else that may be, I think there's some real opportunities in mobile. And a lot of it ties back to the content, not just the experience. But what can you do. That's the that's just time well spent.

 
Sara Fischer 

So that mobile experience, it's going to be social?

 
Andy Forssell 

So I won't get specific as we're still playing around with a bunch of other things. But I don't think Jeremy mentioned some of that I refer to as sort of the drudgery of the grid in terms of it's both amazing that we have all that choice and rows and rows of icons, but it's also work. You certainly don't want that if you have five minutes on mobile. So I won't get into specifics but we are experimenting with things are far more social, more swipey What's a good way in five minutes to 10 minutes to have a great experience? Just swipe your words, Why be it is now his word,

 
Sara Fischer 

Andy I actually have another question for you. I think a lot of consumers are confused. You had HBO Go, which was the portal that you could get access to. If you had a cable subscription with HBO digital HBO NOW the subscription service and Now you have HBO Max, what is the Marketing Challenge and making sure everyone actually is going to know what HBO Max is?

 
Andy Forssell 

So first of all, I think you already demonstrate one more knowledge in the way you asked that question than the average consumer, it's probably a little worse and fuzzier than that I'm not sure everybody understands go versus now some people you said it very well go is if you own cable subscription, one access on demand. Now, as if you're interacting directly with us, and I can't talk about specifics, but I guess it would say we totally understand that. And this should be simpler for consumers. You'll see it get a lot simpler in 2020. And you should see it get very simple in the year after that, but we got to work with partners. And there's a there's a complex distribution system, and we want to support those partners and those users, but we understand that and I think we have a roadmap to simplify that drastically. So

 
Sara Fischer 

and in simplifying that does that mean potentially sunsetting or rolling up the surface into the HBO max platform.

 
Andy Forssell 

Yeah, sorry, I can't I can't talk about specifics. Part of the pros and cons. One of the cons of being a big company is we're in a quiet period. So I can't talk about the specifics of that. But we absolutely just rest assured we understand the consumer point of view and and will absolutely work to simplify it. But we want to do it in a way that works for users and also is respectful for partners.

 
Sara Fischer 

Jeremy, a lot of these initiatives require heavy tech talent. Now, Warner Media is in New York, AT&T's in Texas, and no offense to either of those states, but they're not known for having, you know, California San Francisco, like tech talent. Yeah. So how are you recruiting people to be working on this service so that you can compete technology wise with a service like Netflix?

 
Jeremy Legg 

Yeah, it's a it's a great question. So you know, we really have four development centers domestically for HBO max and the largest one is actually in Seattle. So we've the HBO digital properties has been there for a number of years and that's the largest you know, headcount presence is released HBO Max But we also have a presence in New York or presence in Los Angeles as well as a presence in in Atlanta. And then internationally because this is going to be a global effort. You know, we have presences in London as well as in Amsterdam and parts of Latin America. So, you know, look where the short answer is, we're hiring. And, you know, we we need tech talent. And it's a pretty exciting proposition for people to work on. So as we've doubled down on on these types of products, you know, when you take tech talent through the Warner Brothers lot and say, Hey, would you like to work on HBO Max? It's it's a compelling proposition.

 
 

Yeah, I think about New York, particular with Google and Amazon and Facebook, all investing and having a presence there. Andy, I want to go back to you about this consumer problem about some of the confusion of the services. You know, AT&T, the parent company to Warner media has so many other services, they sunsetted a bunch of services, but then they brought some back like AT&T Watch a mobile, you know, live service. Can you ever imagine a day like Disney? Where you combine an AT&T live service? Maybe it's AT&T Now? The skinny bundle? Maybe it's AT&T watch the mobile app service. And you bundle it with your subscription the same way that ESPN is offering with a ESPN and Hulu lives bundle with Disney plus.

 
Andy Forssell 

Sure. So a few specifics and then a little bit more from a general point of view to answer your question. Meet at&t watch includes HBO today, it will include HBO Max, and we've been public about that. We've also talked at a high level that we are absolutely looking at at options to bundle with some of those products. Again, apologies I can't get into specifics now, in some cases, because we're in this quiet period in some cases, because we're still working out those options. But But I will say and I think we're pretty publicly our investors And saying that HBO max will, one of the things we'll do is if you're in a top tier broadband subscription, top tier wireless subscription, or or number of the at&t TV offerings, HBO max will be included and be part of it. And we handle all the the sort of income statement math internally, but to the consumer, it's included, will absolutely do that. That's a significant number of users. And then to the more general approach long term, we're open to bundling, obviously, within the at&t ecosystem, but we're talking to a lot of external partners because bundling I think, when done right is good for consumers. And it's good for the people that are part of the bundle. It makes things stickier, so you can bet that will will be aggressive and experiments there.

 
Sara Fischer 

I want to flip the switch and talk a little bit more about content itself. I believe we have a sizzle reel that's going to show some of your projects. Let's roll that and then I want to ask you a few questions about it. Are

Sara Fischer 

Alright boys, let's go launch this rocket.

 
Sara Fischer 

I forgot about Gossip Girl coming back, very excited about that.

 
Sara Fischer 

When we saw Netflix, bring some shows on to its platform they went viral like YOU. The show that was originally aired on Lifetime when it exploded when I went on Netflix, I'm seeing some new programming here some new originals. I'm also seeing some programming from your cable channels within Turner that are now going to be brought onto HBO Max. Are there any shows or any types of content that you think is going to explode once it's moved from linear TV onto your streaming platform?

 
Andy Forssell 

 Well look, I think I I don't think we should focus just on that one direction. I mean, if you think about our mission writ large we have tremendous creative talent at HBO and HBO Max, the broader HBO max team at Warner Brothers at the Turner networks, their job is to find great creative and and, and find the right audience and find the right place for it. And there, there are cases where you'll see things where we decided the right place for this Escalade. And there may be later life for that on linear network networks or elsewhere. You'll see the reverse as well. And so I think you're going to see it in both directions and I think there is as much sort of synergy there is there is like more so than conflict

 
Jeremy Legg 

Yeah, it's it's it gets it we have a unique value proposition and then while a HBO Max is a big deal, you know, we have distribution channels through traditional linear ad supported internet or what have you in continental end up finding its way to the place that makes the most sense

 
Sara Fischer 

when it comes to this content. I mean, it seems like there's a lot more than I was just getting with my HBO NOW subscription. Do you have a general breakdown that you could describe to the audience of how much more content will they be getting with this service for just $1 or two more than they got with HBO NOW?

 
Andy Forssell 

the snapshot at launch is it's a little more than double if you just look at the hours think we've been public about that. But that's a snapshot at launch. It continues from there and both the HBO piece of it will increase and the the outside of HBO piece, it will continue to increase. But it is significantly more and again, that's across that's classic. Everything from classic Warner Brothers movies to stuff Adult Swim to that, you know, library from Adult Swim to brand new originals from the max team.

 
Sara Fischer 

Jeremy I saw some content on their comedy. And I thought to myself when I watched the Seth Meyers Netflix show, they allowed me to skip politics of the button. Sometimes they're thinking about Letting me choose my own adventure. Are you thinking about building out from a technology perspective, this type of interactive feature?

 
Jeremy Legg 

We are, you know, we're going to we're going to ease our way into that. And those aren't things that will have available at launch. But as you look at, you know, sort of calm, choose your own adventure stories or the ability to move around and navigate content differently. The technologies associated with doing that largely already exist, but we haven't implemented them in HBO, you know, to date, but you know, those are definitely paths that will go down and experiment and as as the as the product evolves, you know, right now, I think Andy and I would both say we want to get it out the door in the spring.

 
Sara Fischer 

Talk to us about your ambitions and how you're going to be measuring success. Disney expects 60 to 90 million subscribers in five years. Netflix has big goal. It's at about 160 million globally now is to one day have 300 million global subscribers. How many subscribers Andy does HBO Max need to have the next five years in order for it to be considered a success?

 
Andy Forssell 

Well, a couple facets that one thing we've been public about it, there's a goal of 50 million subscribers or really households in the next five years that we talked about at our investor day, that's absolutely a target. But I think that we will absolutely due to the specifics of that. I think the symbology of it's more important we need to matter to we need to matter that much to the US audiences and eventually global audiences. And you do that by the count of how many people are, are obviously paying every month for this service. But you also do it through engagement. And as you'd expect, we have a bunch of engagement metrics on HBO NOW AND HBO Go today. We're extending that significantly in terms of sophistication with HBO Max, and we'll set some goals will sort of test and learn but it needs to matter to people and they need to use it and so we have some pretty stringent intro goes there.


Andy Forssell 

But look, there's a significant investment. We're bringing trusted with a huge investment in this in this service over and above just the significant investment. That's an HBO. And so we need to matter to that many households. And then well beyond that.

 
Sara Fischer 

I'm going to leave the final question to you, Jeremy. Sure. We're measuring engagement. Sure. The subscriber numbers are great. Sometimes we want to know how many times someone watched the show or even completed it. But we don't really have one solid third party measurement that's going to measure engagement across all these streaming services, the way that we deal with Nielsen ratings and TV. What do you think is the future of measuring success in the streaming world?

 
Jeremy Legg 

Well, I think you know, as it relates to non if you think of Nielsen if you start with with that as sort of the baseline that largely existed in traditional television for purposes of advertising, and measuring grps associated with advertising and in the non ad supported SVOD space, you'll see a lot of different kinds of engagement metrics that different companies find important. I don't know that you'll necessarily get a standard as it relates to sort of, you know, non ad supported viewership. As it as it relates to those streaming services. However, ad supported services are coming into the mix. And you know, we've already said that, you know, AVOD will be a component of our service in the future. If you want to sell advertising to advertisers, you're going to have to have levels and standardization as it relates to how those things are metrics, how those are tracked. Nielsen's models historically on television have been panel based. It's more deterministic, typically as it relates to online viewing, and software that's embedded inside of apps. And so a lot of the standards that you see across the industry today to measure that type of viewership as it relates to online, you know, whether it's viewability or other types of metrics MRC accreditation, we're going to have to take all those things into consideration when we launch AVOD.

 
Sara Fischer 

I look forward to watching that mess unfold. I want to thank everyone so much for joining us here today. before we let you go, I wanted to just leave you off with some of the key learnings from today's panel. Andy was very upfront at the beginning of this conversation that quality still matters, Casey Bows and his team is still very focused on it. And he says one of the strategies is that when you scale scale laterally so that you don't impact quality in the individual units. I thought that was smart. Jeremy, Game of Thrones had 4.7 million concurrent viewers on HBO NOW, which means that the HBO max platform built off of HBO NOW should be ready to withstand some big traffic when it launches this spring. Andy, HBO max might not necessarily be directly competitive with a Netflix or a Disney Jeremy said that there could be multiple services that a consumer is using at one time. I also thought it was very interesting. That. Jeremy, you gave us an rundown of the features we can expect about five logins for HBO max downloads at this point, our table stakes, as well as those concurrent concurrent streams. Andy, I liked what you were talking about SVODs and mobile, I know a lot of your competitors, the majority of their streaming viewing is happening on that screen. But that's because their layout, as Jeremy mentioned, is really grid based, which pans itself well to a horizontal screen. I look forward to seeing a more social interface on HBO max on the mobile phone. And last but not least, that goal is 50 million subscribers. We hope that you get there and we look forward to your journey on the way. Thank you very much. Thank you, everyone.

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