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• Transcript

  James Kotecki (00:00): 

  Hey, now's your chance to register for CES 2025. It's in fabulous Las Vegas, January 7th through 10th. At CES 2025, the greatest minds in business, the most powerful brands and the most impactful technology are all converging in one place. What are you waiting for? Dive into the most powerful tech event in the world, where what ifs turn into what is, and that is very sophisticated wordplay. So visit CES.tech to learn more and register today. 

  (00:40): 

  This is CES Tech Talk. I'm James Kotecki, exploring the trends shaping the world's most powerful tech event, CES 2025 in Las Vegas, January 7th through 10th. Technology, it matters to everyone and it's important for everyone to be a part of the technology conversation. That's a pretty uncontroversial statement when you put it that way. 

  (01:06): 

  But if I start tossing out terms like diversity, equity, inclusion, and female leadership, then this podcast becomes prime content for potential controversy. Well, today we tackle these topics head on by diving into who gets a seat at the tech table, and I'm pleased to welcome two guests who have joined me before at previous CESs. Shelley Zalis is the founder and CEO of The Female Quotient, the official equality partner of CES. 

  (01:32): 

  And Emily Graham is chief equity and impact officer at Omnicom, a global marketing media and advertising company, with over 70,000 employees based all over the world. Shelley, Emily, it is great to chat with you both again this time on CES Tech Talk. Welcome to the show. 

  Shelley Zalis (01:49): 

  We're so happy to be here, and James, you know how much we love you. 

  Emily Graham (01:54): 

  Yes. 

  James Kotecki (01:55): 

  Thank you so much. 

  Emily Graham (01:56): 

  Dou ble-click, and also this just gets me jazzed for CES just a few months away. 

  James Kotecki (02:02): 

  Well, we are super excited to build the hype for CES 2025, but I did speak to both of you at CES 2024, feels like it was just weeks or months ago. And I want to check in with both of you at the beginning of this conversation, because we talked about a lot of the issues that I teed up at the beginning of the show: equality, equity, diversity. 

  (02:23): 

  And now here we are, in the back half of 2024 going into 2025, so I want to just check in with both of you. How are you feeling about the state of equality in tech now compared to when we last spoke? And we'll start with you, Shelley. 

  Shelley Zalis (02:37): 

  Wow. First of all, gosh, a year has, I can't even believe when you said 2025, I'm still saying 2024. Listen, I think we've made a lot of progress, and yet we still have such a long way to go, so yes and no, unfortunately. We still have an underrepresentation of women in tech and I think only, and Emily, keep me honest on this one. 

  (03:07): 

  I think we only have 28% of tech jobs that are going to women, and less than 3% of computing jobs, and less than that to women of color. We're still not doing well, so as far as we've come, we still haven't gone far enough. And at the top, leadership jobs, we're still losing women at the top. We have a huge gap there, which is a problem. 

  (03:33): 

  So 18% of CIO roles are going to women, so that's not good enough. And when we're getting into AI, we need more CIOs in those roles and 17% of board seats, so we still have tremendous gaps. And of course, with pay gaps, we're still in the 80 cent space, and then with women of color, nothing has happened. We have a lot of work to do in that area. Emily, jump in. I can keep going. 

  Emily Graham (04:02): 

  Yeah. And frankly, every single thing Shelley said, plus when I think about technology and equality, it is undoubtedly wrapped up in this debate, this diatribe about DEI: diversity, equity, and inclusion. You can't really have a conversation about equality without bringing in equity, it's nice cousin, and then inclusion and diversity as well. 

  (04:28): 

  And when I think about technology, specifically women and gender has always been the forefront of the fight. But I think there are some other components to equality that I started to see emerge very much at CES last year, which was accessibility, disability inclusion as a very important topic. Something that we've really been focused on as a company, but something that I think is really resonant. 

  (04:53): 

  And frankly, feels like while we continue to be on the frontlines talking about gender equality, accessibility and disability inclusion seems to be a new and additional frontier that we need to start really fighting on. I think compared with last year, to answer your question, James, I have seen more forward and front acknowledgement and conversation about how much work we still need to do. 

  (05:18): 

  I hear a lot of frustration with how much progress seems to still need to be made. Even though we've made inroads, for every leader that we see take the helm at one of these companies in a position that we know is very hard to attain and celebrate. But for every leader we lose, we lose a lot of ground. I think when I started to see companies really think about and center disability inclusion in their products and services. 

  (05:46): 

  When I started to see people thinking about things like language and cultural nuance in their technology, I love to see that because it lets me know that we've evolved. But I believe that technology must stay on the frontlines in this debate and discussion around the value of equality. Because if we let it, people will lose focus, get distracted by if DEI matters. 

  (06:10): 

  And try to divorce it from the conversation around technology and equality, and I think they're very entwined. 

  James Kotecki (06:16): 

  And Emily, can you define the difference between equality and equity for us real quick? 

  Emily Graham (06:21): 

  One of my colleagues has a really great visual and I was talking about accessibility, so let's use that, let's keep walking that way. So if you and I and Shelley were going to New York City to the Liberty game tonight and we had to cross the street, we'd stop and we'd maybe hit the walk button. So as we wait for the walk button and it starts to sound and count down, depending on what crosswalk you're in in New York City. 

  (06:49): 

  If you look down, you'll notice to your right or your left, there is a little dip in the sidewalk, which is almost like a ramp. For which people who need to use an additional or different way of getting there can get there, be a wheelchair or stroller, or maybe they're just an Amazon delivery driver and they need an easier way up. 

  (07:11): 

  But all of those people have a unique and specific need that allows them to need to use the ramp on the sidewalk, versus just stepping down like we might to cross the street. That is where you start to think about equity, because we all need to cross the street so we all have the right and the ability to do so equally. But when you start talking about equity, it is an adjustment. 

  (07:33): 

  It was a very specific use case that we decided we need to help others reach equality that we can't, which is why we have that ramp there for the wheelchair access. That's why we have it for people who might be temporarily disabled and might need some different assistance, or who might just need a different way. That is the best way to describe equality and equity to me. 

  Shelley Zalis (07:55): 

  I just want to add to that because it's why when you talked about DE&I, diversity, equity, and inclusion, a lot of companies today are using that word inclusive more than ever before. Because that word inclusive really does encompass everything from culture to policy, to accountability, to accessibility, and we are shining a big light. 

  (08:27): 

  I used to add the A to DEI&A just to make the A visible, because it was so if you don't put the A in, it is invisible and we are not recognizing it. And by the way, I just want to give a big shout-out to CES because last year, as your official equality partner, we did put the A very front and center. 

  (08:46): 

  And CES did bring a lot of visibility to the A, the accessibility. But now we are starting to focus a lot on inclusive policies, where so many companies are implementing more inclusive practices and policies with flexible work arrangements and parental belief policies, and mentorship programs where we're focusing a lot. 

  (09:09): 

  We still have a long way to go, but we are starting to make it very front and center. We're making it very conscious with inclusive environments, and diverse voices are being heard and listened to and valued. And it is just so incredibly important, so that I is the one that we're focusing on. 

  (09:26): 

  And SHRM, which is the largest non-for-profit trade organization, is putting the big I as the center, more than the D and the E. They're putting the I front and center as well. 

  Emily Graham (09:41): 

  There's been some debate about that, Shelley. I will say everyone is not pleased with that choice when you sit where I sit and I know there's some conversation we'll have. But I do think it is concerning when we get into the alphabet soup of diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, accessibility. 

  (09:58): 

  That folks think they're interchangeable, or that you could collapse one and that you have another and you merge them, but these are very distinct, important, related topics. And I think where SHRM and some organizations might stumble a bit, is in trying to figure out how do you successfully satisfy? You never can. 

  Shelley Zalis (10:20): 

  I agree. I'm not talking about whether you drop the D and the E or what you drop. You used another word, which I want to bring up, which is belonging. And the I of inclusivity is so incredibly important and the belonging is so incredibly important. 

  (10:39): 

  Because being valued and respected, and seen and heard is so incredibly important. I don't care what we call it, but we do need to make sure we all feel valued and respected in an organization today with accountability for that. 

  James Kotecki (11:01): 

  There was an article in The Economist a few weeks ago, you may have seen it. I think the title was Peak Woke. And the idea was that over the last couple of years, and they looked at different data points to say, "Oh, DEI is basically on the decline," and they show a number of graphs. I'm not sure if that's exactly what they were saying. That's the message that I took away from the article. 

  (11:20): 

  That that's what they were conveying to me, the reader. And I wonder if some of that, assuming that that's true, and I'm sure that this group could certainly argue about the premise too. But assuming that that's true, I imagine some of that may be leaders who never really had those innate values internally, were just saying certain things that they thought they needed to say because of certain cultural moments. 

  (11:41): 

  And now they feel like the moments passed them and they can get away with not doing that as much anymore. But on a core value perspective, do the two of you have reasons for optimism that people's actual, internal states are changing here? Because if not, it seems like all we're doing is playing a shell game where we just choose whichever term is least politically controversial. 

  (12:01): 

  Or people are getting most pressure on and focus on that. I see you're both nodding your head, so please feel free to jump in either of you. 

  Shelley Zalis (12:08): 

  Emily and I are going to grab each other through the screen and hug each other in a minute, because we're going- 

  Emily Graham (12:12): 

  Yeah, yeah. 

  Shelley Zalis (12:14): 

  Can you go first? 

  Emily Graham (12:14): 

  We're in the battle. Yeah, I'll go first. And just as a fan, frankly, of the work that Shelley has done and pioneered for decades, I want to start there by saying Omnicom's diversity, equity, inclusion journey began almost two decades ago. It was entrenched in this desire to shift an industry, much like Shelley has done with CES and technology, and industry advertising, marketing, that did not have people who looked outside of a certain kind of frame. 

  (12:46): 

  The fact that people now are grappling with whether diversity, equity and inclusion is a business ambition they should get behind. Not only is it worrisome, but frankly, I think it's a core business strategy. When you look at the performance and growth and competitiveness of the best companies in the world, they have centered some level of equity and inclusion and diversity in their business to make them more profitable. 

  (13:11): 

  To make them be more desirable, and frankly, to reflect the world that we live in. I don't think diversity, equity, and inclusion is just the right thing to do anymore. It is what you must do if you want to be fit for purpose in the business that we're in. But let's talk about it being the right thing to do, and then I'll get off my horse and I'll give it to Shelley to get on the soapbox. 

  (13:30): 

  But I believe that companies facing identity crises with diversity, equity, and inclusion right now, James, maybe always happen. I do see that there is some activism in shareholder activism, so I'm not going to discount what pressure companies are under. But fundamentally, this work is about championing and being relentless in our ambition to chase down belonging for all people. 

  (13:58): 

  Equity where people see and feel and have what they need to be successful, including people in that journey, and seeing diversity across all spectrums of difference. Difference in age, ability, gender, ethnicity, race, religion, creed, geography. It includes every single person who can see and breathe in the world today. It's not a Black thing, it's not a white thing, it's not an American thing. 

  (14:23): 

  And because it's been reduced so much to this binary discussion, politicized frankly, in a way that has become counterproductive, I think it's made some companies lose focus and lose their direction. When actually to me, now is the time to clarify your mission and purpose. To activate your shareholder, whether that's your stakeholders, your board, your employees. 

  (14:48): 

  Everyone who is involved in diversity, equity, and inclusion and in the business of the world, has to come together and coalesce for more impact. You can't splinter from your chief marketing, your chief technology, your CEO, your board of directors, your client leaders. Everyone really has to see the vision and believe in the work to move it forward. 

  (15:10): 

  And the companies who do that will be the companies, I think, that come on the other side of this great debate, that I hope will start to die down at least in America after the election is done. 

  Shelley Zalis (15:21): 

  I agree on everything. I think when people say it's unconscious bias, they're conscious and then you have a choice. So anyone that is trying to eliminate DE&I, that's just an excuse for not delivering. You treasure what you measure and you need to have accountability, and representation is reflection of the society that we live in. 

  (15:46): 

  And when we are not creating products that are working, it's because they're not created by the people that we need to be reflecting. And conscious leadership is what I talk about all the time. It's just being conscious and that's what it takes. I think that there's companies that are focused and accountable, and then there's ones that aren't. 

  (16:10): 

  And those are just when they say we want to get rid of DE&I or whatever alphabet you want to use, it's because they aren't doing a good job, and they goofed because they just put people in the wrong places or did it because they were supposed to. You just need to set the right goals and then you need to deliver on it and do it properly. 

  (16:30): 

  So you can make every excuse for why you want to get rid of it, but those are excuses for poor performance and not delivering and measuring what matters. 

  Emily Graham (16:40): 

  And it's hard, by the way. The other thing, James, is it is very convenient to abandon something that is difficult. You ever try to go to the gym for six months straight and focus on a goal and run down something? Train for a marathon, do anything that was hard mentally and physically? 

  (16:57): 

  The work of diversity, equity, and inclusion is arduous. It is you take hits all the time. The way that you have to really lean into this work requires a level of focus that can be daunting. So you might want to abandon, but this is where the real people's ambition and the real work starts when everyone starts jumping ship. 

  Shelley Zalis (17:19): 

  Yeah, but you know what? It really pissed me off one day when I came home and I received a report from the World Economic Forum that said it's going to take over 131 years to close the gender gap. What? I looked at it and I thought, "This is the silliest thing I ever heard." You have world leaders, government officials, everyone sitting around a table and they read this report year after year, now it's 134 years. 

  (17:41): 

  And I thought, "Well, that is ridiculous. 131 years to figure out how to pay Sally the same as Peter. 131 years to have women at the board table. 131 years to have Black women in leadership positions. 131 years to have access, that is the silliest thing." We have the data. We know what's going on, that's impossible. So I put a campaign out to make people conscious. 

  (18:11): 

  I figured, "Okay, maybe they're unconscious. Let's make them conscious." Once you know, you have a choice, do something or don't. I did a whole campaign and I said it took 25 years to create the internet, two weeks for ChatGPT. How hard is it, how to check to pay Sally the same as Peter? It's not hard. You have a choice. 

  (18:29): 

  Once you're aware, you either do it or you don't. Equality, equity, diversity, inclusion is possible if you want it, period, exclamation point. 

  James Kotecki (18:40): 

  And by the way, the Consumer Technology Association, which is the organization that puts on CES every year, I believe they're 100 years old, they're celebrating their 100th birthday. So if we project where we were 100 years ago technologically, when that organization's roots began to now, and we see the massive change. 

  (18:58): 

  And we project 100, 131, 134 years into the future, the technology issues are going to become increasingly wild and mind-boggling. You mentioned ChatGPT, Shelley, and I want to ask both of you what your thinking on AI is right now at this moment. I imagine we checked in on it at CES 2024. If we check again at CES 2025, probably talk about it again, it's a pervasive issue. 

  (19:22): 

  The zeitgeist on AI seems to be maybe ebbing a little bit, as far as the hype around what it can possibly do. But we still have these major issues of AI becoming increasingly embedded into our lives. Emily, do you have a current thinking or ideas or take on how AI plays into these conversations that we're having on the show? 

  Emily Graham (19:43): 

  Last year, I moderated a panel on the CES stage with Google and L'Oreal about evolutions of AI, and its role in inclusion in beauty and how people see themselves. Literally, see themselves reflected, but also see themselves in the way they do their beauty, and their photography and everything. I was heartened because frankly, I think there are a few people who looked a little sideways at a chief diversity inclusion officer moderating that. 

  (20:14): 

  A year ago, the idea of a diversity, equity, and inclusion alignment with AI felt a little less familiar. Now, a year later, I see so much more connection and people, like this conversation, having a clear link between the value of inclusive, ethical, artificial intelligence with inclusive diversity and equitable actions happening together. So I love it. It was the topic of CES last year. 

  (20:46): 

  It is certainly no shortage of headlines. My hope, though, is that we can mature the conversation. Not only do we know AI is the anticipated, expected technology of our generation and of this lifetime, and that it's only going to continue to evolve rapidly. But what I really want to get into is how does it increase and ensure that we have more access and more opportunity for people? 

  (21:14): 

  I saw something around AI-enabled ultrasounds the other day. I've seen AI-enabled health scans for preventative health. So that to me is where we start to really have a more fundamental, interesting conversation around AI. And correcting even the algorithm and the dataset that AI is using that so many of our young people and professionals are interacting with. 

  (21:43): 

  I don't want them to learn from ChatGPT that if you Google some major events in history or some major things that are happening, that they've erased entire generations and backgrounds of people. I want us to fix the algorithm so that it becomes the most inclusive, most informative use. And enables and educates and helps us societally with equity and inclusion, and diversity and that lessens it. 

  James Kotecki (22:13): 

  Shelley, are you worried about AI bias becoming entrenched? 

  (22:17): 

  Basically, there's this idea that maybe we have a narrow window right now to adjust the algorithms and fix some of these biases before they become so pervasive, and controlling of so many aspects of our life that it's just baked in. 

  Shelley Zalis (22:29): 

  Yeah. Listen, I recorded 10 years ago called the Algorithm for Equality, which is crazy. I had no idea that AI was going to be a thing like it is now. There's so much bias in the data and so much input, the male data, especially with femtech today and health exactly as Emily is suggesting. You know what I learned the other day? 

  (22:53): 

  I learned this from my girlfriend, Sharon Kedar, who's a scientist and invests in femtech and all this kind of stuff. This is going to freak you out when I say this to you. Mice don't menstruate. I'm pausing dramatically right now, because if you understand the implication. 

  Emily Graham (23:12): 

  But they still can procreate, right? 

  Shelley Zalis (23:14): 

  Yes, but all the testing is done on mice and hormones. Think about that. I said to myself, "Oh my God, that is crazy." So now think about AI and all of the data that goes into AI, and especially with science and the bias, and the algorithms and the implications. And the scientists when we just talked about science, male scientists, the mindset, the implications, everything that goes into that. 

  (23:46): 

  So when we think about research, the data gaps, bias in medical algorithms that we're building all of the design around, of course, there's implications around that. There's so much positives because we're accelerating a lot of things, but the acceleration with AI also is accelerating the bias. 

  Emily Graham (24:11): 

  And the people hold the bias, honestly. We are creating and crafting the system. We are creating a universe from which AI is pulling. So one of the ways it was described with our panel last year, is someone talked about being one of the people in the early room of when emojis first came out. Before you could select your skin color and your skin tones, you remember? It was all one. 

  (24:39): 

  Somebody, a person of color who was a woman in the room where this was all being developed, said, "Hey, this isn't inclusive. Not only do I not see myself, but we have a lot of biases in this from race, from gender, make the change." And that is the voice, the inclusion at the table. 

  (24:58): 

  The seat at the table impacting the technology is how we got to the place where all of us, billions of people, have all the choices and options that we do when we use our devices, whichever you use to test, to communicate, to see yourself. And that's what I think is very important about AI technology in the pipeline that even Shelley started with. 

  (25:19): 

  Who has a seat at the table to inform the algorithm, the dataset, the conversation? This is not just about what's coming out of AI, it's about what we're putting into it and who we have shaping it. 

  Shelley Zalis (25:32): 

  Okay, wait. Emily, add one more piece, which is venture capital investments and who's investing, because we know that less than 2% of VC funding goes to women, less than 1% to women of color. Digital health investments, less than 5% going into digital health. That's so incredibly important. 

  (25:53): 

  And then more importantly, I just have to put this out there because this one I just learned, which just blows my mind. Less than 1% of supply chain procurement dollars, less than 1% to women-owned businesses, which is different than female founders. Which James, we're going to do a big thing at CES on women-owned businesses. 

  (26:17): 

  To be women-owned, certified, 51% needs to be owned by women collectively. So whole other conversation, which is another day and time. 

  James Kotecki (26:27): 

  Shelley, you are talking about CES 2025 and what's coming up for CES 2025. We know that women's health is going to play a role. We know that health in general is going to play a big role at CES 2025. 

  (26:38): 

  We also know that you're going to have the Equality Lounge again at CES 2025. So Shelley, tell us what you're excited about coming up. 

  Shelley Zalis (26:45): 

  Oh gosh, we've expanded our space. So we're going to have a huge space, so it'll be three times the size this time. We're really excited about it. We are hoping everybody comes. We are the official equality partner. We are so grateful for everything that CES does. We started our first Equality Lounge, which was called the Girls Lounge at CES. This is our 10-year anniversary. 

  (27:08): 

  So we are really excited about that. We always do our walking tour, so girls going walking at CES. We walk the floor and have hundreds of women walking, which is really, really exciting. And hopefully, we will feature a lot of femtech and everything going on in that space. And Emily, now I'm so excited for Emily to be part of our pack. We call it Power of the Pack. 

  (27:30): 

  A woman alone has power, collectively, we have impact. And of course, we talk about conscious leaders. It's not about gender. It's about if you're in a position of power, use it. We actually just got rid of the word empower. We don't talk about male empowerment, so why do we talk about female empowerment? 

  (27:44): 

  So we wiped out the word empower, empowerment, someone gives you power. So we actually now call it inpower. So we're not empowered, but we're inpowered, so the power lies within. 

  James Kotecki (27:54): 

  So is that I-M? 

  Shelley Zalis (27:57): 

  I-N. 

  James Kotecki (27:58): 

  I-N, an inpowered. Is that a word that you coined? 

  Shelley Zalis (28:02): 

  Yep, our new word. Yep, new word. 

  James Kotecki (28:07): 

  I believe if you go to the Equality Lounge, you can get cool phrases like that airbrushed on certain things. 

  Emily Graham (28:12): 

  Yeah. Well, so I'm very proud that the years I've been at Cannes, I have gone to the Equality Lounge and I'm a canvas bag toter. 

  (28:21): 

  And I get all my little, what do they call them now? And you can press them on your denim jacket. Remember, back in the day, the Saved by the Bell day? 

  James Kotecki (28:28): 

  Badges, patches? 

  Emily Graham (28:29): 

  Badges, yeah, and I can press them on my canvas, so I love that. I can't wait to go and see you. 

  James Kotecki (28:35): 

  Emily, we're getting a view into your fashion of your childhood, so thank you for that. 

  Emily Graham (28:39): 

  Coming back, it is comes back. 

  James Kotecki (28:41): 

  And Emily, what's Omnicom planning for CES 2025? 

  Emily Graham (28:44): 

  Well, I am excited to tease out. I am certainly not the voice of all the wonderful things that are happening, but I can tell you this. Just like last year, our Omnicom Media Group is leading the activation at CES. We will be returning to our dedicated space, the platform, that was our home base, similar to our other activations where we had something that is immersive. 

  (29:10): 

  It is not only meet space, it is collaboration space. It is the space where you come and you hear what Omnicom is doing with our clients and partners. We will have the transformation experience on Wednesday with a stellar lineup. If you were there last year, you remember Paris Hilton was there talking about being the original e-commerce OG when it came down to the work that she's done. 

  (29:33): 

  And we'll have a lineup of luminary special guests, and we'll be doing tours again on the floor. So it's going to be a really fun experience. Last year was my first time walking the CES floor ever. I had never been before. 

  Shelley Zalis (29:45): 

  And you have to come with us. 

  Emily Graham (29:49): 

  I know I have to come with you because my chief technology and my chief information officer took me. And our chief technology officer said he's been coming to CES since before I was born, and it was true. 

  (29:58): 

  So he was like, "Come with me. I'm going to walk the floor with you." And he took me for some hours that day. It was really fun. 

  James Kotecki (30:04): 

  Well, obviously we could have spoken for easily twice or three times the length of this conversation, and I'm looking forward to speaking to you both. 

  (30:11): 

  Again, thank you so much for joining us today. Emily Graham, Shelley Zalis, thanks for being on CES Tech Talk. 

  Shelley Zalis (30:17): 

  It was such a pleasure. 

  Emily Graham (30:19): 

  James, this was so nice. Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure. 

  James Kotecki (30:23): 

  And thank you so much for listening. That's our show for now, but there's always more tech to talk about. If you're on YouTube, please subscribe and leave a comment. If you're listening on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, iHeart Media, or wherever you get your podcasts, hit that follow button. 

  (30:38): 

  Let's give those algorithms what they want. You can get even more CES and prepare for Vegas at CES.tech. That's C-E-S. T-E-C-H. Our show is produced by Nicole Vidovich and Paige Morris, recorded by Andrew Linn and edited by Third Spoon. I'm James Kotecki talking tech on CES Tech Talk.