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• Transcript

  James Kotecki (00:00): 

  Hey, now is your chance to register for CES 2025. It's in fabulous Las Vegas, January 7th through 10th. At CES 2025, the greatest minds in business, the most powerful brands and the most impactful technology are all converging in one place. What are you waiting for? Dive into the most powerful tech event in the world where what ifs turn into what is, and that is very sophisticated wordplay. So visit ces.tech to learn more and register today. 

  (00:40): 

  This is CES Tech Talk. I'm James Kotecki exploring the trends shaping the world's most powerful tech event, CES 2025 in Las Vegas, January 7th through 10th. And let me ask you something, do you think this is a game? Well, if you don't, you probably should because gaming from casual mobile games to hardcore high-tech immersion is an economic and cultural juggernaut. So today we briefly tear our eyes away from the screen in front of us to gaze upon the industry as a whole. 

  (01:10): 

  If you're ready to get smarter about what gaming means and where it's going, today's conversation is here to unplug and reboot you. Joining me right now are two powerhouse guests. Liz Schmidlin is a lead games user researcher at PlayStation. She's worked on games including Horizon Zero Dawn, Spider-Man, Days Gone, The Last of Us, part one and two, and Horizon Forbidden West. And Steven Hummel is the senior manager of market research at the Consumer Technology Association. That's the group that owns and produces CES. He's developed no video games yet that I know of, but who knows what he's cooking up in his spare time. Welcome Steven and Liz. You are both winners in the game of life and we're so glad to have you on the show. 

  Steven Hummel (01:53): 

  Thank you. Thank you for having me. So happy to be here. 

  Liz Schmidlin (01:55): 

  Yeah, thank you. 

  James Kotecki (01:56): 

  Steve, I want to start with you just to give us a sense of the overall scope of what we're talking about here in terms of the gaming industry, whatever numbers that you can toss out that will help us understand it in terms of players, dollars, square footage at CES. What are the indicators that you look at to understand what gaming means? 

  Steven Hummel (02:13): 

  Yeah, of course. It really sets the stone for really why we're talking about gaming in the first place. So when it comes to revenues globally, the gaming industry is the largest segment of the entertainment industry. In fact, it's roughly $187 billion globally and it's bigger than the music and movies industries combined. So we produce a forecast twice a year, and according to our tech industry forecast, which we published most recently in July this year, consumers are projected to spend a whopping $50 billion on video game services and software. And that's a 3% increase from last year. And thinking a little bit further down the road, we expect that to grow further to $55 billion in the next five years. 

  (02:58): 

  So taking a step back, let's think about why has it had so much success? And one of the primary reasons for that is the increasing popularity of mobile gaming. Definitely not trying to undermine my PC or console gamers out there, but nearly everyone has a smartphone today. What's crazy to think though is that today's smartphone has more computing power than all of NASA did back in 1969 when it placed two astronauts on the moon. And it's crazy, but it's wild that most people are also gamers and because they fall into this category of, like you said, the casual gamers, the mobile gamers, and whether you're playing Candy Crush or Roblox or streaming the newest flagship titles, you can be gaming anywhere and everywhere all at once. 

  (03:46): 

  But for that reason, consumer spending on mobile gaming apps represents about half of that $50 billion domestically. And just take a step back though, speaking of the '60s, to answer your earlier question, thinking about CES, that was when we held the first CES. It was back in 1967. And fun fact, Liz, you may not have been there, but Sony was one of 200 exhibitors there in New York City, and CES has grown quite a bit since then. 

  (04:15): 

  We're now in Las Vegas. But the gaming industry and its presence at CES has grown quite a bit as well. Since the debut of the Atari console in 1975, really the biggest news in the world of gaming has been broken at CES. Think about Tetris, Xbox, Nintendo, the Oculus, they and many others debuted at CES. But hardware and exhibitors aside, CES is also growing as a venue for bringing experts and leaders in the gaming space together. So back in 2020, we kicked off our first dedicated gaming and e-sports conferencing track and we haven't looked back since. And hopefully, Liz, we will get you on stage with us this year at CES 2025. 

  Liz Schmidlin (04:58): 

  I would love that. 

  James Kotecki (05:01): 

  So gaming is huge. Gaming at CES is huge. We're going to the moon metaphorically, and also kind of literally with the computer power that we have. Every time I hear that stat, by the way, about the computer power in our phones compared to NASA into the '60s, I'm like, "We should also get back to the moon, by the way," which is a totally separate podcast from this one. So bringing it back down to Earth for a second, Liz, you have an awesome job title, lead games user researcher. You have a Ph.D. in human factors engineering, I believe. Can you tell us just a bit more about what that actually means and what your part of the world of gaming looks like? 

  Liz Schmidlin (05:35): 

  Yeah, absolutely. So my role in PlayStation is to help our incredible development teams get to great faster by being data informed and vision led. 

  James Kotecki (05:45): 

  So data informed and vision led. Let's start with the second piece of that. What does it mean to be vision led? Or I guess maybe a better question is why are those two things different? I imagine idea is you have a vision of a place you want to go, but then you use data to support how you get there? 

  Liz Schmidlin (06:03): 

  Absolutely. So the reason we say data informed vision led is because we never want the work that we do as researchers to dictate the creative process. There's so much creativity and art that goes into making games. And what we're doing is we're gathering data, we're gathering facts and stats and trends, and we're making sure that our teams have the latest and most up-to-date information and still they can choose to say, "You know what? I see what you're saying. I'm trusting my gut on this one." And we're okay with that as long as they understand the data, data informed, vision led. 

  James Kotecki (06:43): 

  When we're talking about user research, we're talking about human factors. I mean, in one sense it's all about human factors because there's humans that are making these games and there's humans that are playing these games, but maybe what's an example of something that you might bring to a conversation that other people involved in the creative or the game development process might not be? When you are sitting at the table, what is maybe some of the perspectives that you're bringing? 

  Liz Schmidlin (07:07): 

  Something that I've been particularly invested in recently is cognitive accessibility, which is this incredibly broad and relatively unexplored space in games, though we have seen some really great progress in the last few years. For example, features that support memory by allowing players to review story elements or different steps in a quest that they may have completed so they can pick back up again easily. 

  (07:31): 

  The inclusion of content warnings and even allowing players to blur or skip certain triggering content so that they can still experience the game are all really powerful examples of this trend in cognitive accessibility. And I think we've really just started to crack the surface. So that's something that I like to bring to the table a lot is are we thinking about the cognitive and emotional accessibility of the game? 

  James Kotecki (07:54): 

  That's fascinating because I know that... So it sounds like, correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe you would use this kind of memory assistance and maybe the initial pitch for that would be, "Well, folks have different abilities to remember things and maybe someone who has more trouble with that will get more enjoyment out of the game if we assist them in this way by reminding them of these steps or this quest or whatever." 

  (08:12): 

  But I imagine that so many things in accessibility, once that feature is added, a lot of other people who may not have raised their hands and said, I need a memory tool, a lot of other people end up starting to like that too, or it makes it easy to kind of go get lunch and come back and play something or pick something up three weeks later. I imagine that it broadens the pie for a lot of folks. 

  Liz Schmidlin (08:31): 

  Absolutely. I mean, I think accessibility broadens the pie for everybody. And the example of the sort of memory assistive features, yes, absolutely, they can support players that maybe have some shorter term memory deficits. However, as many of my friends continually ask for, "Why is there not an adults with busy lives setting, that just reminds me, okay, real quick, here's what you were doing three weeks ago before everything changed or when a menu shows you what the results of your change is?" 

  (09:11): 

  If you're selecting large subtitles, what does that mean? It's really great when it shows you, "Okay, this is what we mean when we say large subtitles." And it's good for all players and it's especially good for players with disabilities because we don't necessarily in our day-to-day account for the energy that it takes to get in and out of menus and find things and make these selections and making people go back and forth and back and forth. There's a cognitive tax to that. It's not a motor and energy tax. 

  Steven Hummel (09:46): 

  I love the conversation about captioning and subtitles mainly because they're two different things and they don't translate the same for traditional media. That's video content versus gaming because it's not static, it's dynamic. And so you can have something like captioning, which is what's going on on screen, but then you've got subtitles which is being spoken by a character, an NPC. So what's happening off screen? Maybe it's a cannon blast, maybe it's wind noises, maybe a bear is running up to you, whatever. You'll get that on screen via captioning, and it might be one of those things that gives you a competitive advantage in the end if you're turning on that feature in a professional gameplay. 

  (10:34): 

  But I know if I'm playing with headphones on or it's not loud, volume wise, I'll be able to get a sense of presence that something is around me without needing to turn everything around and get lost in my own environment. It's pretty incredible. 

  Liz Schmidlin (10:55): 

  Steven, I'll challenge you. Does it give you a competitive advantage or does it give you access to the same information everybody has? 

  Steven Hummel (11:03): 

  Yeah, it is the same. It's just whether you use it or not. It's a game mechanic for a reason, I think so. But the footsteps approaching kind of a thing. I mean, I know if I'm playing a horror game, I'm definitely turning that on because I don't like jump scares. But if you were speed running it or trying to do it on your own and wanted a more hardcore level of intensity, sure, turn that off and you're there. So it's for your own taste, I guess you could say too. 

  James Kotecki (11:36): 

  Steven, I want to see if we can tie this back to the macro perspective of gaming too, because what Liz is talking about is being at the forefront of actually developing these things and pushing it to be more and more accessible. I think that kind of ties into what you were saying about the growth of gaming and the way that it's being just taken up by so many different people in so many different formats and so many different kinds of devices. 

  (12:02): 

  I suppose that only makes sense because, I think it's been a long time since the cliche of gaming is this niche thing for dudes in their basements. That's the cliche, that's so old. It's not barely worth mentioning anymore. I'll mention it. Why not? But as we can push into more and more demographic adults with busy lives as Liz said, then it makes sense that accessibility is a big part of maybe the push there. 

  Steven Hummel (12:28): 

  Yeah, a hundred percent. I totally agree with that. And thinking about accessibility just beyond those with maybe impairments, but just accessibility in terms of the inclusiveness of gaming, I think it's really important to highlight a new and emerging group of gamers out there. I'm specifically referencing the Gen Z gamers and the Gen Alpha gamers. They're a rise of a generation that is hyper-connected and digitally literate. They're not just passive consumers of content. They're really active creators and collaborators, and they're just the biggest cohort of gamers that we have right now, and they've overtaken millennials in just the past couple of years. I love research. 

  James Kotecki (13:22): 

  It's because millennials became those adults with busy lives. 

  Steven Hummel (13:25): 

  Yeah, and I'm certainly one of them. I love research to back this up and there was a report from Newzoo just a couple of weeks ago that came out that over 90% of Gen Alpha and Gen Z consumers engage with video games, and we've put out research that supports that on our own end. But gaming is more than just entertainment for Gen Z and Gen Alpha, it's a touchstone that changes and shapes their worldview. When it comes to storytelling elements and even the social connection of gaming, these groups cite that it's one of the primary reasons that they play games. 

  (14:02): 

  And so it demonstrates that there's this role for games not only as a source of entertainment, but also a source for education and inspiration. There's this emphasis of character development and narrative-driven gameplay, and it's critical. Some of the games that might've been mentioned like The Last of Us, or even Red Dead Redemption 2, the Mass Effect series, the Fallout series, they provide players with complex characters, and these players have to make some very morally ambiguous choices, and it encourages players to think critically and with empathy as well. 

  (14:43): 

  But for the Gen Z and Gen Alpha out there, it's developing these social connections and forging them through gaming. It's been unprecedented for these younger players. Think about the ones that they've grown up with, like Fortnite, and Minecraft, and Roblox. They foster a sense of belonging and not just building the communities and connecting with friends, but they don't always have to play collaboratively, but sometimes cooperatively or sometimes professionally against each other as well. 

  (15:17): 

  But these gamers are also hanging out in more casual settings as well, like Discord and Twitch, and it's even when they're not in games. So one of the examples I think is really interesting was during the pandemic, so many people were socially isolated. And for those who were in school or out of school really because the classroom became virtual, some of the teachers out there and educators who were using gaming platforms like Half-Life: Alyx. There was a great example where a math teacher was using one of the chalkboards on the VR platform to teach math and get students involved in a new level of engagement with their education. 

  (16:00): 

  But really, these games are no longer just a solitary pastime. It's a platform for shared experiences, emotional connections, and just culture as a whole. But we're going to be putting on a new report this fall on gaming, and obviously Gen Z, Gen Alpha are going to be a big critical part of this and really excited to embark on this journey of research again. 

  James Kotecki (16:27): 

  Liz, when you're thinking about story and when you're thinking about social connection, how do those themes come up when you and your team are developing games? 

  Liz Schmidlin (16:38): 

  That's a great question. So thinking about story, thinking about social connection, I mean, I tend to work a lot in single player experiences, but that doesn't mean that there isn't still connection with the world. And so I think that's actually somewhere where we have a lot of really cool accessibility overlap and accessibility opportunities where the world is part of the story as well. 

  (17:04): 

  I think most recently audio descriptions have become a really amazing part of storytelling and games, and it gives access to our players who maybe don't realize, aren't able to access the setting that they're in and understand like, "Oh, you're in this rundown basement, or you're in this beautiful lush field, and there's birds coming in from the right." And they're like, "Oh, birds. Maybe I'm supposed to pay attention to birds." So I think accessibility is folding into every part of the game. And what we're really seeing is this almost inclusive design instead of necessarily just accessibility add-ons. We're seeing inclusive design that allows all players access to the story in a way that fits their own needs and their own desires. 

  James Kotecki (17:56): 

  And when this research is happening, do you observe maybe individuals playing the game? I'm just curious, how does the research actually look in practice, and do you, Liz, or people on your team ever get to have that maybe exhilarating moment of seeing someone play a game in a new way because of what you did and to see the experience difference for them? 

  Liz Schmidlin (18:17): 

  Absolutely. I mean, I think first I want to say what we do is the research, but the creative solutions, the implementation of these things, all credit goes to our incredible developers for that. So we find the problem, we help them understand the problem space, and then we trust their incredible creativity. Our main services really accessibility testing and accessibility evaluations are really similar to what you may have known in usability and usability counterparts. 

  (18:50): 

  For evaluations, we may go through a game and highlight potential barriers, provide some opportunity areas considered based on best practices or subject matter expertise. We also are able to give feedback on issues directly relating to areas like setting menus at first boot, if you're wondering how many issues there could possibly be with just those parts of the game. Turns out it's a lot. And while we're pretty great at predicting issues, it's really no substitution for testing and actually bringing players into the lab. 

  (19:22): 

  And again, we may be experts in our field. I may have a PhD in human factors engineering, and still I will tell everybody I am not the user. We don't want my voice to be the only voice that gets heard. I want to be a conduit for our players and for testing, we bring players with disabilities, people with lived experience into the lab to play our game. And this is an even better way to uncover barriers, and it's really crucial for validating and testing our solutions. 

  (19:53): 

  And all disability exists on a spectrum, and so I may have quite a lot of book knowledge or I may have my own lived experience, but it really helps to bring in multiple players. We don't just bring in one person with hearing loss and say, "Okay, great, our game is hearing accessible." That's not it. So we bring in lots of players. We work with incredible consultants who serve as subject matter experts as well, and we test constantly. It is a constant stream of testing and reevaluating. It's never a one and done. 

  James Kotecki (20:35): 

  Liz, do you think that the philosophy of the industry is where it needs to be when it comes to this stuff? Obviously you're doing great work at PlayStation and Sony. Do you think other colleagues in your industry are at the same place as you when it comes to the need for inclusion and the need for accessibility? Where would you say that the industry is overall? 

  Liz Schmidlin (21:00): 

  That's a really great question with a very, very complicated answer. I think my colleagues personally, they're incredible. Everybody wants accessibility and inclusive design because who wants to spend four or five years making a game that somebody can't play? Nobody wants that. Nobody sits down and says, "I want to make my game so that no one can experience this." Absolutely not. However, we are all running up against budget timelines, the limit of our own knowledge. Has there ever been a solution for this before? 

  (21:43): 

  And so I think what we're seeing now really this evolution, this revolution of accessibility is this switch to inclusive design. We've been through and we continue to see extraordinary games come out with these mega lists of accessibility features, and that is incredible. I will absolutely every day say, "I love to see it." Big lists with lots of accessibility options. And what we're also starting to see in little bursts now is this switch to more inclusive design and accessibility from day one. 

  (22:22): 

  So instead of having to turn on a bunch of features, it's just accessible from the jump. So that's really where I think we're getting to. It's just there is a lot of work to be done, a lot of ground to be covered, but the industry is full of incredibly passionate people who really care about our players. And you see it. We're constantly engaged with our players on different social media platforms, online in Discords, on Reddit, just we're talking to our players. We're getting that feedback even outside of the feedback we get from the lab. 

  Steven Hummel (22:59): 

  I will say as a fan myself and a gamer myself, I really do kind of appreciate these incorporations of inclusive and accessible design, and it kind of goes for granted sometimes, taken for granted sometimes because I was playing Horizon Zero Dawn on or Forbidden West actually, and there's Thalassophobia mode as a feature in the system menu. And I was like, "Okay, what is this?" 

  James Kotecki (23:30): 

  Can you define that for what people... 

  Steven Hummel (23:33): 

  Yeah. Thalassophobia mode is those that are basically scared of deep dark ocean waters. And I had that feeling I was going snorkeling on an excursion one time where like, "Oh, I can't see the floor beneath me and it's utterly terrifying." And so there's aspects of the game where you got to go deep down underwater and there's things lurking there and the sounds that you might not want to hear might make you just want to put your controller down and just be like, "Nope, not playing this game anymore." And that mode gives you more depth of feel. It lets you see further underwater. It gives you visual pings and audible messages when there are things around you. 

  (24:15): 

  It kept me playing to the end. And wonderful. It's a beautiful game and it didn't in any way detract from the gaming experience. I think it enhanced it for me. And so that's the takeaway for me. And really other simple things like you have button remapping for your controller or your joystick or your mouse and keyboard. And that's just something that whether you're a casual gamer or a professional gamer, you're going to map for yourself because you're going to want to have the best gameplay experience for yourself. 

  (24:48): 

  But really this was designed for someone that might've had difficulty moving their fingers in certain positions. So really this is something for everybody that doesn't detract from the gaming experience. It certainly enhances it. 

  James Kotecki (25:03): 

  What I am hearing from this conversation is the future looks more inclusive. The industry is moving that way in terms of gaming, which is the most important industry in entertainment according to Steven. However, per Liz, it's very challenging and it takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of buy-in and it takes a lot of conversations and iterations to get there. And so as I zoom out and think about lessons that might be applicable to other industries that are going to show up at CES 2025, it seems like it's worth it. It's hard, but it's happening, 

  Steven Hummel (25:36): 

  Definitely. 

  Liz Schmidlin (25:36): 

  Oh, absolutely. 

  Steven Hummel (25:38): 

  Yeah. I think there's a lot of crossover in the gaming space into the other sectors out there. And I'll give you a great example specifically around haptic technology and controller design. While it's certainly being used to make more immersive gameplay experiences, it's no longer just about hearing and seeing a game., It's about feeling it. And haptics are by no means a new concept. And it's sure evolved since the first haptic controllers of the '90s. And if you're a gamer like me, when we had our N64 controllers, it was an add-on pack. And you always wanted to be the gamer that had the add-on pack. And not everybody had all the controllers, but now we've really evolved. The DualSense controller from the PlayStation 5. 

  (26:28): 

  You've got adaptive triggers and haptic feedback built in to really create a more interactive level of immersion. So like a game like Returnal for example. You can physically feel tension in your weapon when you pull the trigger and you'll get resistance changes in the trigger based on the power, the recoil. It's subtle, but it's an incredibly powerful way to enhance the gameplay. 

  (26:51): 

  But we're seeing advancements in controller design beyond those traditional handhelds. So we've got new VR controllers like the Meta Quest Touch or PlayStation VR2, which was unveiled at CES. They feature more ergonomic button layouts with haptic feedback, and that feels a little bit more natural to be playing games. But continuing at CES, we've seen more groundbreaking developments in haptics. We saw from gloves that replicate the feel of objects in virtual reality and full body suits that provide full body haptic feedback. 

  (27:27): 

  And there's this one company, bHaptics, they had this TactSuit. It's for VR could be used for gaming. It's got about 40 points of feedback across your body, so you can feel the touch sensation of something like a spider or something a little bit more intense like a weapon recoil or an injury. And it's also battery powered, so there's no wires that get in the way. So you really get this seamless immersion effect for VR gaming. But the crossover is not just for gaming, it could be for training. It could be for touring the workforce that need to feel resistance of something more industrial, but it can also be used for therapeutic purposes. 

  (28:07): 

  VR therapy is a big growing area, especially in digital therapeutics. And so my point about crossovers stemming into, in that realm, you can help a lot more people. And going back to the accessible area as well, you're using technology that can be accessible to get people maybe into gaming because they had a phobia once and it could have been resolved through a VR headset and some haptic training. 

  James Kotecki (28:37): 

  We talked about video games related to movies and music, I believe were the two industries, Steven, that you compared it to in terms of economic importance or size. But there's obviously a lot of crossover there. You get great songs that go into games. You get movies and TV shows that are made out of games or games that are made out of movies and TV shows, and you get all this kind of crossover. You get this technology crossover where things that are developed for gaming can have wide application outside of it. 

  (29:04): 

  So Liz, if you don't mind indulging me in a philosophical question, do you think the definition of gaming is changing, needs to change, is going to change? What does a game mean? 

  Liz Schmidlin (29:17): 

  That is a great and philosophical question, and I'm going to be a researcher about this one and say, "I think it depends." I don't want to try to put games in a box. I think the definition and what we hold in our minds as what is a game is constantly evolving. I think there are some commonly shared elements across different experiences that ultimately make it a game. There is an element of challenge. There is this element of reward. There's an element of satisfaction that goes into it. And beyond that, I think we have as a community really greatly expanded. 

  (29:57): 

   We all lived through that time where casual gamers were like, "Ooh, dirty casuals," where it's like we don't talk about the casual gamers. But now my mom plays games. I think that's amazing. The range of players is really extraordinary and what counts as a game has gotten incredibly broad. We have our incredible AAA titles that are developed by mega studios with incredible staff, and we have absolutely world-changing indie games made by one person with just a lot of dedication. What is a game? It's anything it wants to be. 

  Steven Hummel (30:45): 

  I love this topic of crossovers. We could have an entire followup podcast on this, or a series entirely. 

  James Kotecki (30:51): 

  We could have a crossover series about crossovers. 

  Steven Hummel (30:54): 

  Little Meta. But I think these convergences between other media like film and music and literature has really evolved in the gaming space, and they heavily influenced one another. There's really this symbiotic relationship between gaming and other forms of media. Now, it didn't start this way. It was more of a stay-in-your-lane type of role for gaming back in the '80s and '90s. And I think overall, the industries have matured since then. There's really this rich exchange of ideas and storytelling and cinematography now, and we've got a lot of rise in new talent like art designers and voice actors. And the technology can't talk without that. 

  (31:39): 

  That has been driving media forward. But think about music, the music industry, for example. I grew up with games like Guitar Hero and Rock Band and Frequency and Amplitude, and they popularize music-based gameplay. And then you've got the in-game soundtracks. They've become incredibly sophisticated, usually featuring their own composition, their own composers, renowned artists are playing them. And even the Final Fantasy series has its own orchestral tour. And I even have a friend who used part of the score as their music for their wedding when they walk down the aisle. So it lives on in culture. 

  (32:19): 

  And literature, that's another area. So The Witcher, anybody who's playing that game started as a book, but I think most people know it now as a Netflix series. And streaming has been a huge avenue to get people into games. Gosh, The Last of Us series broke HBO's subscription video-on-demand ratings in Europe. It became the most watched show in HBO Max in Europe and Latin America. And in the US it set records for one of the best week performances for a max title in 2023. 

  (32:53): 

  This year we've got Fallout on Prime. I love this example because the acclaim of the show was so strong that the mobile game, Fallout Shelter, which was completely independent from the PC and console games, it grew by more than 300% in a week after the show launched. And that game, Fallout Shelter is nearly 10-year-old game. But because fans of the game series re-engaged with it and new players were drawn to it for the very first time just from watching the show, it found itself at one of the top spots of free games in the app store and raked in about $80,000 a day just due to in-game transactions. And it's fascinating to me. 

  (33:37): 

  But one other aspect is the use of technology and especially gaming technology that's going to create new opportunities for more storytelling, more immersion, and certainly going to be across all media platforms. But I don't know if you've watched the show The Mandalorian in Star Wars land, but we've also got House of the Dragon on HBO. The directors used volumetric sets to film their shows, which rely on the same video game engines that gamers use to play Fortnite. 

  (34:14): 

  It was Epic Games Unreal Engine 4. And directors do this because they can create some CG mock-ups of the scenes because it gives them a more realistic background versus the standard approach of using green screen. But actors also can benefit from this too, because they get a better sense of scale and can visually see the world around them. And then the set designers don't actually have to build it because some of it's actually too complex that it couldn't exist in reality. But yeah, so many convergences, I think this is going to be here to stay. We've barely scratched the surface. And on my last count, there's more than 50 movie and TV show adaptations from gaming currently in development. And these synergies aren't going away anytime soon. 

  James Kotecki (35:03): 

  Not to mention the computational power developed to make video games perform well being used for crypto, being used for artificial intelligence. And we definitely do need to do an entire crossover series about that. So I am excited that you mentioned all those different convergences because they tie directly to the reason that this podcast exists in the first place, which is CES because of course gaming is going to be there. But so are all the other technologies and ideas and content and concepts that you talked about as well. That is the place where people gather in person in Las Vegas to have these conversations to make connections and to really see what everybody else is doing. 

  (35:44): 

  Liz, I know that you were at CES 2024 and we're hoping to see you at CES 2025, but what did it mean to you to be there and to see people and technology and experiences in your field in person? 

  Liz Schmidlin (35:59): 

  Yeah. I was at CES 2024, and hopefully I'm back again for 2025. And what a great show? It was so energizing to see. For me, that whole incredible accessibility alley was I walked away with that perhaps as excited to be in the gaming industry as I've ever been because I got to connect with so many talented and passionate people, and I got to see the things that are happening even outside of gaming that we could maybe like, "Hey, that's a really interesting solution. It wasn't made for gaming, but I wonder if there's a world where we can borrow some of that." It was just really, really exciting to network and to see the possibility and to just see the way technology is pushing forward. 

  James Kotecki (36:57): 

  Okay. So, Steven, looking ahead to CES 2025. I'm sure that Sony is going to show up in a big way, but overall in the gaming space, what are the trends, topics, technologies that you are most looking forward to seeing? What's getting you hyped? 

  Steven Hummel (37:12): 

  Yeah, of course. I mean, on the show floor, there's generally so many accessories and products that just enhance the gaming experience. And so I expect we'll see more of that whether it's the new gaming monitors with the higher resolutions and refresh rates for that pro level gameplay or more of that tech to immerse your living arrangements, whether it's RGB room lighting or something else entirely, but more VR tech and haptic wear. That's where I think the future kind of is. 

  (37:40): 

  But it's like neuro technology and gaming. We've already seen the early stage experiments with... They're called BDI, Brain Computer Interfaces, and there was a company there at CES in 2020 called NextMind. And so actually, I can just try this out. This is wild. At the world's first brain sensing device, which let users control their augmented reality or virtual reality headsets with their mind. 

  (38:07): 

  And there was no conductive gel, no wire ray. You just calibrate it in a few minutes and boom, you were controlling things with your mind. And while this was really cool in practice, some companies... Elon Musk has a company called Neuralink, which back in 2021 was using similar technology to get a monkey to play video games with a joystick. And eventually it took away the joystick and the monkey was playing video games with just his mind. And this trickle-down effect is being used in so many powerful ways in the digital health arena. 

  (38:45): 

  Current day January this year that Neuralink company conducted the first surgical test for a brain implant for an adult human that has ALS, also known as Lou Gehrig's disease. So ultimately the hope is that this technology could assist others like him and others around the world who might be losing their motor function. But I think once, again, these crossover technologies that we see at CES have major breakthroughs and implications into the future of gaming and beyond. So that's what I'm excited about at CES. 

  James Kotecki (39:22): 

  That is so wild. That is so wild. And as we're wrapping up here, is there a plug that you want to do for more research or places that people can go on the CTA Consumer Technology Association website and plug more into gaming if they're interested in all these crossovers and having these kind of industry level collaborations and discussions? 

  Steven Hummel (39:42): 

  Of course. Our website is cta.tech, but all of our research lies at cta.tech/research. So for any information on our [inaudible 00:39:51] our research, go there. 

  James Kotecki (39:52): 

  And, Liz, I'll give you the last word. Any technology from you that's just over the horizon that you're really interested to get your hands on or maybe get your brain on as the case may be, and see what the applications could be. 

  Liz Schmidlin (40:06): 

  I'm actually quite interested in those Neuralink technology that you were actually just talking about, Steven, because I think it has a number of potential implications for gaming for, as you mentioned earlier, like VR therapies, particularly for veterans who perhaps are returning from situations where they may be experiencing some PTSD, they may be experiencing a whole new set of abilities now that they are learning to live with. 

  (40:43): 

  And I think that that Neuralink makes the world accessible, again. And that's really what it's about is allowing people to have the same experiences that we all want to have. 

  James Kotecki (40:59): 

  Well, Liz Schmidlin from PlayStation and Steven Hummel from the Consumer Technology Association, it turns out that the biggest win in gaming was the friends we made along the way. Thanks so much for joining us on today's episode of CES Tech Talk. 

  Steven Hummel (41:13): 

  Thank you. 

  Liz Schmidlin (41:14): 

  Thank you. 

  James Kotecki (41:15): 

  And that's our show for now, but there's always more tech to talk about. So if you're on YouTube right now, please subscribe and leave a comment. If you're listening on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, iHeartMedia or wherever you get your podcasts, hit that follow button. Let's give the algorithms what they want and you can get even more CES and prepare for Vegas at ces.tech. That's ces.tech. Our show is produced by Nicole Vidovich and Paige Morris, recorded by Andrew Linn and edited by Third Spoon. I'm James Kotecki talking tech on CES Tech Talk.